Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:10 Hello and welcome to the Dreams Swarm Podcast. This is your home for supernatural film stories and art. I'm your host Magic Realist filmmaker Andy Mark Simpson. Are you sitting comfortably and we'll begin.
Speaker 2 00:00:28 Hello everyone. Welcome to the next episode of Dream Swarm. We are doing a bit of a Christmas special at the moment, thinking of a great, uh, Christmas tradition that happens in Britain and that is of Mama's Place. I'm really pleased to be able to welcome Sam Seaborn of the Wantage Mamas who's gonna tell us all about it all. Hello Sam.
Speaker 3 00:00:46 Hello. And would
Speaker 2 00:00:47 You be able to just give us a brief introduction to yourself and the Wantage Mamas? What's it all
Speaker 3 00:00:53 About? Sure. My name is Sam Seaborn. I've been associated with the Wantage Mamas for nearly 40 years. I became involved because I was a musician with the local Morris Dancing team and the Morris Dancing team has always sponsored the ish mamas in some way. And I was asked if I wanted to do a bit and I did. And, and I think I've been involved every year since then, except for two years when I wasn't available. Initially I was a musician with the Wantage, uh, Morris Dancers, but uh, the Wantage Mums play does have music associated with it, and eventually I provided music for it as well. The Wantage Mummers, uh, have been around since 1975 in their current incarnation. They started to revive the local play in 1975 when a modified version of it was performed in the summer for the Queen's Silver Jubilee in 1977. And then, uh, Bo on Boxing Day 1977. It started with local pubs and then moving around the town and the locality, we play two fairly large crowds in Farrington. There would be about 200 people turn out the marketplace in one, two, about 300 people in the marketplace and in children, about 150 people.
Speaker 2 00:02:10 What are mama's plays? What's typical that people could expect of a mama's play In England,
Speaker 3 00:02:16 There are three types of mama's plays. There is the hero combat play, which is the most common one. There's one which is based on a wooing courting sequence, less common. And there's another one which is based on sort of a, a sword dance, which is probably more common up north. The local play. And Wantage is the mid bark shear mama's play that has two main characters, two, two protagonists as it were. Our version of the play has King Alfred and who, who was born in Wantage and Bo Slasher, who is a French Napoleonic officer, I would say. And they fight a dire players introduced by a character called Molly, sort of of pantomime dame type character. When King Alfred is wounded, he is brought back by a quack doctor. They fight again, though Slasher is killed and brought back to life by a Spanish mystic called Jack Vinny.
Speaker 3 00:03:13 We then have a beggar appear asking for money. That's the cadging part of, um, mama's Plays. And then we have a sort of sous sayer character come on, who gives a rhyme about the events of the past year. So it's a sort of catch up on current events type type of thing. That's old Father b Ziba played, lasts about 20 minutes. It has a big audience. And you might say, why is that the case? Because this is a play that's every year, it's the same script. Hundreds of people turn up every year. They'll turn up again this year and next year they turn up in hundreds of other locations around the country. Why does it happen? Well, the Wantage Mamas have always been conscious of the historical feature of Mama's plays, which is to incorporate a little topicality as also current events, you know, so there are, although we stick to the script, the script is sacrosanct. There are lots of site gags, which are about current events. There are no change to the scripts, but you know, the site gags say volume. So there's loads of topicality like that, which is fed in. And the other feature of the Wantage players, the old father ubs, uh, rhyme, he brings on at the end of the play, includes things that have happened during the year that might have some sort of amusing side to them. Keeps the audience happy.
Speaker 2 00:04:29 So as you say that, you've got a script which has gone back to the mid seventies with your particular group and, and kind of is probably older than that, but then this father Bizi bia Reim adjusted every year. And, and that's modification that keeps pulling people back into it. What is the history of Mama's plays then? You were, you were saying about the Wantage Mumas and, and when that was set up and how it's kind of in its current incarnation. Are you aware of how other previous incarnations of, of that group and just generally mama's plays in, in England and I guess the, the further afield island and places and what, what's the history of mama's plays? He did say it's quite a complicated kind of history to
Speaker 3 00:05:07 It. It, it is because mama's plays have picked up something over the centuries. You know, they've been rolling for a very long time. There are bits from various parts of history, start with the definition. The word mom in old English meant moot. So miming was part of, you know, ancient history. And mom in Old French means masking or disguising mish spiel in German means a masked play mish spiel. So masking or disguise, and maybe miming was part of it in historical context, that's back in history at some point. But mask plays are very old. They were known to the ancient Romans, uh, to the ancient Greeks. And I suppose they were also street plays. So we perform in the street these days or sometimes in the pub, but street plays were also known to ancient Rome. And they became important, I suppose, with in a religious context when, when they were being used to put across a Christian message.
Speaker 3 00:06:10 You know, in the days when people didn't read and write plays of extracts from the Bible, scenes from the Bible were were acted by strolling players to educate the public generally. So these were conducted by strolling players and sometimes there were morality plays like Robin Hood. So we're talking, you know, 13th century sort of thing. And then under the reign of Edward iii, he created a national saint. That's when St. George became, if you like, our hero, our saintly hero. And that character that still endures in many my mama's plays. So that's around 1350. I remember the first thing that could be described as medieval momming. That's momming spelled M O m y n g would've been when Richard II came to the throne in 1377, there was a process called Momming that was created for him by the Worshipful company of Goldsmiths, I think, or John John of Go's idea, which involved a procession, a mi play, a Game of Dice, which has the French name mom chance.
Speaker 3 00:07:17 So again, mom is, is linked to, to momming and a dance. That was the sort of medieval mama's process. And, and that sort of became publicly quite popular, I suppose. And then you, you add in the St. George element and between the 15th and 17th century you had people like the Monk, Jonathan Lidgate and the romance writer Richard Johnson, writing about the life of St. George, romantic stories about his courage. So that came into the public psyche. So we, we've got momming, we've got miming, we've got disguise, we've got St George. And then from 1550 onwards, something was introduced called a Chatbook. Now chatbooks were like comics. They were distributed around the country by different printers, and they carried stories. They, they carried puzzles and plays and poems and all sorts of things for general public entertainment. The other thing that happened in 15 fiftys, it's relevant, was that we had Bishop Grindle under Queen Elizabeth, I, I pretty much banning Christmas because the Puritans like to ban anything where people had a good time, you know, anybody enjoying themselves that wasn't allowed.
Speaker 3 00:08:33 So Bishop Grindle banned Christmas and other celebrations, including mama's plays that is ancient momming and Morris dancing and so on. He, he issued visitations to cities preventing this. That was important because people missed the good times. So between the 16th, 18th century people were still trying to visit houses, acting out this ancient sort of medieval momming process. Guess the mama, the game of chance with the dice and that sort of thing. And Cadging money, ordinary people would've been doing that. But then the breakthrough from a modern point of view came in 1746 where researchers have discovered a chatbook, which had a particular play called Alexander and the King of Egypt researchers discovered most of the words to the modern momming play in this play, published in a chatbook in 1746. So it's important because there are mama's plays all around the country, but what Peter Millington did was to find the common lines in those plays, which are for all these plays, to have so many similar words.
Speaker 3 00:09:40 There must have been one source. He and others have been able to pin this down to this particular chatbook. It was a mock play, so it was acted, it was like a, a laughing tragedy if you like the Italian style comedy tale art, I believe it's known. So there was a serious message, but there was a bit of a laugh with it. Uh, that chatbook actually gives the name of this play, but it actually says, as acted out by the mamas at Christmas. So that's pretty much the starting point, I think of the modern mamas hero combat play. And then over the years, there've been variations due to local factors due to national factors. So St George became King George, or in our local players, king Alfred, the, the original enemy was a Turkish knight taken from the Turkish wars King of Egypt, of course with a Napoleonic Wars it became a, a Napoleon type character.
Speaker 3 00:10:34 Hence we've got slasher who's a French officer in our mama's play. So it's been tweaked. In summary, the the modern hero combat play started life somewhere around mid 18th century and it's traceable. And then there's been sort of variations in characters due to sort of local factors. And bear in mind from most of the time, this wasn't written down, it was handed down from generation to generation as most folk things are like folk music is passed on without being written down, you know, so there are variations which are quite interesting and that's why there are hundreds of variations of the mama's play because it was passed on by word of mouth a lot of the time. So there's a very big answer to your question, but it is a very big subjection
Speaker 2 00:11:16 <laugh> because yeah, when I've looked into this kind of things that people say, oh, well the, the kind of scripts that are current at the moment go back a, you know, a few hundred years, but there's older mama's traditions around, but as you say, like village, each, each area kind of modifies it to fit like current events to, to some extent. And it kind of changes over there. Mama's plays how always the sort shape them with Christmas. But then there is similar events happening other times a year, aren't they? In different areas like Easter ones and elsewhere in the year,
Speaker 3 00:11:43 If we, if we just go to the sort of 18th, 19th century, they were very much in the hands of the working people of the villages, if you like. And they were used as a method of Christmas cheer. But I think Cadging is the operative word. I mean, they were used to, to raise money, you know, the character of Happy Jack comes on, please put something in my bag. So they would give a little play, but they were kind of asking money for it, you know, to supplement the family income. That still happens, I have to say collecting, we don't go begging these days, but people want to give a donation and it's an important part of what we do. You know, there is a variation of the Mama's play, which happens at Easter time called a Pace egging play. It's very much the same sort of basis. It's basically the same play. And I think characters in the, in the 19th century would take any opportunity, any holiday in the agricultural year as it to try and raise a bit of money, put on a pace saving player at Easter Holiday. Mama's play at Christmas time, the Whitson period, which was a natural holiday in the farming year, was when Morris man would go out dancing and try and collecting money for Morris dancing. It had to work around the working man as
Speaker 2 00:12:54 It were. So around the working man and around agricultural times as well, like clown one day or Whitson and things. Yeah. Where there was a gap in there and people wanted to supplement their incomes through that. But I know, I know you guys now you do it and you give money to charity that goes on today. Think of that as a Christmas thing then. So I presume that in other times you might emphasize certain other characters, but I know when I've looked at kind of Christmas moments as plays, I like the old, like Father Christmas character. Is that quite a common character in, in some of the other players that you're aware of as
Speaker 3 00:13:23 Well? We tend to forget how ancient the character of Father Christmas is. I mean, father Christmas was an identifiable character back in the, oh, 15th century I think, you know, he, he, he appears as Father Christmas in ancient Carols hail father Christmas, hail to thee as a 15th century Christmas carol. But I mentioned, um, Bishop Grindle who kind of banned having a good time at Christmas. So when mamas started house visiting after, you know, Elizabeth and Times the father Christmas character came in because there was the immortal line, hoping old father Christmas will never be forgot that was there because people wanted to remember the good days, you know, when they celebrated Christmas with feasting and Jo and drinking and, and having fun that good old Bishop Grindle had banned. So remembering Father Christmas was really remembering the good old times in many of the plays around the country. Father Christmas is the presenter, or I re I mentioned Molly or sometimes called the rumor or the sweeper. The person who introduces the play in our play, father Christmas, just has a walk on part with the line hoping old father Christmas will never begotten. So he's there as a character, but he's not there as a speaking character in the wanted version of the play.
Speaker 2 00:14:42 Your version as you see has, has these different characters and, and you've adapted off local circumstances, but it is quite a common thing in other plays around the area, around the regions to have that Father Christmas character. Now, I really like that character cuz it goes back such a long time as you're saying it's, it's different to Santa Claus. It's a, it's a all kind of spirit of Christmas.
Speaker 3 00:15:02 It was a very different character from Santa Claus. Santa Claus was invented by Clement Moore who invented the night before Christmas poem. You know, it was very much an American invention. I mean they, they've merged together now in modern times, but Santa Claus was a, let's say, a different personality from good old Father Christmas.
Speaker 2 00:15:22 You're mentioning some of the traditions for traditions than musicianship and you mentioned other types of mama's players I know, um, up in the Northeast. And we don't have mums plays in the same way that you do in the south and the western of England. So we have the kind of rapper sword dances. Yeah. That, that's the kind of form these things take in different geysers, but we don't have mums plays in the same way. But how does it link to other traditions? You mentioned Maurice dancing as well and folk music. Are there strong links between these kind of different folk traditions and the mama's plays?
Speaker 3 00:15:52 There are no sort of links in the dramatic sense. So I think what links them is that the, the people who like to maintain these traditions like momming plays, you know, they're centuries old. They're part of our cultural fabric, you might say folklore. They're the same sort of people who like to support Morris dancing or was hailing they're Christmas time and maintain these traditions. It so it is, it's mainly the people who are involved at Link Them together. There's no exact link between Maurice Dancing and Manning, although there's a dance in our local play, which resembles a Maurice dance, you know. But I think the main thing is that Manning is something that links with Christmas, which is an ancient festival or with Easter, um, with Pay Segging and, and that's the link and the people who like to support these things and make sure that there's continuity in, in our national traditions as
Speaker 2 00:16:43 It were. Yeah, I really like that Then that preserve in these traditions and in the fork music and the, the ma stan and the the mamas players and getting everyone together and have a good time at special events and especially at Christmas when bringing a, a community together like that to celebrate something old. But that is made current as well. I was just gonna ask, what is your favorite thing about being involved with Mum as players and with the Wantage mums?
Speaker 3 00:17:06 Well, it's something to do with the previous answer really. I would say the first thing is I enjoy maintaining our traditions in this country. They're part of our social tapestry. They're part of our fabric. Um, as a society, I think they're important to who we are. Uh, just as traditions in Germany or Spain, Italy are equally important to their character, to their national character. Secondly, there's a camaraderie of of creating the play every year, working together with other people. You know, it's, it's like being in a cricket team or a football team. It's doing things together. Thirdly, for us, when we finish the final play, there's always a, a big party celebration in the local pub. Plenty of drinking, singing, music, you know, that sort of thing. But probably the most important thing, and I said about collecting money is that over the years we have collected something like 30,000 pounds, uh, for a good course have been associated with Wantage Mumon stations like the NHS McMillan, cancer Support, the Children's Society, and, and a number of local charities, mind N S p, CCC and so on. So worthwhile causes. So we're doing something we enjoy, we're maintaining a tradition and there's, um, a material benefit from it as well.
Speaker 2 00:18:17 I would encourage anyone to check out plays in your local area that there are websites you can find. How can people find out more about you guys
Speaker 3 00:18:25 Want? Is mamas.org uk turn up earlier is all I can say.
Speaker 2 00:18:30 And that's boxing dear that you perform those
Speaker 3 00:18:33 Always on Boxing Day.
Speaker 2 00:18:34 Always on boxing. Dear
Speaker 3 00:18:35 We, we produce the book, which gives the history of Vantage Mamas and momming in general. It also contains most of old Father BBAs annual reviews. And you can buy it on the website and you can pay whatever you want for it by whatever contribution.
Speaker 2 00:18:50 So wantage mamas.org uk so people can go on there and find out about the Wantage Mamas and, and more about the all the Mamas traditions and can support the charities that you guys are involved with as well. Sam, thanks very much for coming on the show. I've really enjoyed this chat. Great.
Speaker 1 00:19:11 Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Dreams Swarm podcast. I've been your host, Andy Mark Simpson. We hope you'll join us for the next one. Remember, you can subscribe to Stay in Touch with future episodes and follow us at the website, www.dreamsformm.org or follow on Twitter and Instagram at Dreams formm. And we look forward to joining you for more supernatural film stories and art. In the meantime, be creative, be curious, be kind. We'll see you soon.
